Shortly before Covid hit with full force in the Spring of 2020, Evan started saying that we needed to take a trip to China to visit our beloved MSL alums, to engage with our partner at Fudan University in Shanghai, and to explore opportunities for additional partnerships. Our last trip to China was in 2018, and we now have over 120 alumni in China – many of whom have graduated since that last visit. We started formulating a plan. And then Covid hit. The China trip was put on the back burner.

Fast forward a few years. People have gradually started travelling internationally and the MSL is celebrating its 10^th anniversary year. And Evan is back at it saying we need to go to China.

We decided to travel to China with three MSL staff members: Me (no way I was going to miss this opportunity), Evan Goldberg (of course), and Ashlee Hardgrave, our wonderful Admissions Director. We were also privileged to be joined by a Northwestern Law faculty member and one of the original founders of the MSL, former Dean and now Professor, Daniel Rodriguez (aka my husband). All of us – except Ashlee – had been to China multiple times, with Evan far in the lead with ten previous visits to the country. Here’s what our seasoned China traveler, Evan Goldberg, had to say about the visit:

EG: As a seasoned traveler to China, this visit stood out as one of the most rewarding trips I’ve taken. Not only was it wonderful to be back in China after several years, but also, the warm welcome by students and alumni, the joyous celebrations, and the productive discussions surrounding new initiatives created a fun, productive, and familial atmosphere. During a time when there is chaos and conflict throughout the world, this people-to-people engagement was meaningful and showed the strong desire we all have to connect and collaborate. Finally, China’s continued commitment to innovation, higher education, and developing new knowledge remains impressive and helped reinforced the MSL program’s commitment to this part of the world.

As a first-time traveler to China, Ashlee had this to say:

AH: This spring, I got the joy and honor of representing the MSL program on its visit to China. I was visiting the country for the first time and had incredible moments connecting with our China-based alumni, meeting with prospective students and university administrators, enjoying insightful lectures from one of the MSL’s distinguished professors, and exploring the country’s cultural and culinary landscapes. I was eager to immerse myself in new experiences, represent the program well, and forge meaningful connections with current and future university partners. I was fortunate to have excellent travel companions!

And here’s how Professor Rodriguez (DBR) described the trip:

DBR: I have had the good fortune to visit China previously, more than two decades ago as a participant in an international conference, and a few times as dean of Northwestern Law School, meeting with alums and various Chinese professors, lawyers, and other dignitaries. China is, as one would readily expect, infinitely fascinating, with a legal tradition that is at the same time opaque and revealing. Lawyers and businesspeople in China have been steadily modernizing and expanding upon a highly sophisticated and complex approach to legal and financial structures and the rule of law. While one can read much about these ongoing developments, it takes boots on the ground to get a richer sense of what is happening.

Travel to China has changed a lot over the past years. There are now many fewer flights than there were previously, and the available routes are more circuitous. The first flight Evan booked for us had us flying through Switzerland with a significant layover – a 30-hour tour. Eventually, through Evan’s persistence, we were able to book decent flights from Chicago to Detroit to Shanghai – still no non-stops available from Chicago, go figure.

We arrived at our hotel and were greeted with a lovely bouquet of purple flowers and a sweet welcome note from one of our inaugural year MSL student (now alum), Via Li (MSL ’15). Emerson Tiller and I had met Via on our very first recruiting trip for the MSL, at a grad school/career fair event at Rose Hulman. Via was initially so excited to learn about the MSL – we met her in Terre Haute, Indiana at around 6:00, and when I arrived back in Chicago a few hours later, Via had written to say she was sure she wanted to attend the MSL. When you are starting something new and uncertain, those first nibbles of interest take on outsized importance. Via’s interest inspired those of us working on the MSL to think that we might actually be on to something. We were even more encouraged when Via recruited another student from her home university, Tongji, to join her in the MSL for the 2014-15 year.

Considering Via was our first recruit, it was lovely to have dinner with her on our first night in China, and what a lovely dinner! That first dinner was the start of a cavalcade of amazingly fun and delicious meals – collectively we brought back about 20 extra pounds with us when we returned to the US. And not in our luggage.

AH: If there’s one thing my travel companions and I take seriously outside of professional obligations, it’s food. Our dining expeditions were both adventurous and immaculate. We experienced no disappointing meals! From high-end dining (our dinner on the Bund with Fudan folks was amazing, complete with a giant sugar sculpture) to dinners in strip malls, we were hosted by gracious groups and found some unique spots on our own. I’m glad that I can always count on Evan, Leslie, and DBR for an awesome culinary adventure, with lots of good humor along the way.

Evan had put together a jam-packed schedule of university visits, and we began those visits on our first full day in China.  At our first stop in Nanjing, we were joined by our wonderful alum Yixuan Zhang (MSL ’21 – who also joined us for our reception in Shanghai, our visit to East China University of Science and Technology, and our reception in Beijing – this guy was everywhere!), and we had a productive meeting with University officials focused on education in intellectual property. That was followed by a delicious lunch with Yixuan that allowed us to sample Nanjing specialties, including duck. We took our first high speed train ride, which was smooth and fast.

Continuing our string of amazing meals (and, no, I won’t detail every meal, though I would love to), dinner that night was hosted by our wonderful alum Zhaoyu Lu (MSL ’19), and it included two other class of 2019 stalwarts, Hao Gao and Ying Chen. The company was delightful, the food was amazing, the setting was gorgeous, and the shots were plentiful.

We were incredibly busy from this point on, with a ton of meetings, appointments, and info sessions.

DBR: Among the highlights for me of this trip was the opportunity to talk with various students, faculty, and administrators at leading Chinese universities and law schools. At these visits, we talked about the roots and features of our unique MSL program, and also about how this program was forged from a commitment to interdisciplinary study at the intersection of law, business, and technology. While universities are often considered to be siloed and tradition-bound, it was remarkable for us to see the ways in which the Chinese universities we visited are building programs and fostering scholarship that is deliberately interdisciplinary. We had terrific discussions at both Tsinghua and Renmin about the importance of interdisciplinary thinking – it appears that Chinese legal educators – just like those at Northwestern – see the imperative of drawing upon myriad disciplines and encouraging what one of my Northwestern Engineering colleagues has called “whole brain thinking” to address our most wicked problems.

AH: We enjoyed engaging with students and faculty from several esteemed universities. The faculty meetings provided fruitful discussions and time to explore possible collaborations and exchanges with excellent institutions like Tongji, East China University of Science and Technology, and Shanghai Jiao Tong University. Our information sessions were filled with bright, charming students who were eager to explore the MSL’s trademark intersection of law, business, and technology; I was delighted at the number of business cards I handed out. One meeting, in particular, at Fudan University, was as informative as it was productive – we were treated to a terrific presentation by Professor Chen Li on the hundred-year relationship between Fudan and Northwestern.

I’m so pleased that our productive trip has already borne fruit. At least three members of the 2024 MSL class will be coming from universities that we visited: two from our successful partnership with Fudan University, and one from Tongji University’s Shanghai International College of Intellectual Property.

In addition to discussions and information sessions focused on the MSL, we were thrilled that Professor Rodriguez was invited to give lectures at two of our university meetings.

DBR: At Fudan and Peking U., I was privileged to give substantive lectures on the topic of “Changing Views of Legal Deference in American Public Law.” The audiences were large, and the questions were highly sophisticated, showing that faculty and students at these distinguished universities were sincerely interested in developments in American constitutional and administrative law, and were also eager to think about how what is going on in the US compares with recent developments in China. I was happy to have these rich conversations with Chinese colleagues, and came home determined to learn more about legal developments in China.

AH: I’ve often joked that I’m jealous of MSL students because of the fascinating topics they get to study. Now I don’t have to be as jealous, because I got to enjoy several excellent lectures by Professor Rodriguez. He spoke on the changing landscape of legal deference in the US, and how some pending Supreme Court decisions may affect agency-related entities in the coming years. It’s clear why MSL students enjoy his classes; I certainly did!

Apart from our meetings at universities, the high point of our China trip was connecting in person and spending time with our wonderful MSL alumni. We held two celebratory receptions – one in Shanghai and one in Beijing; in total, over 50 alumni attended these events, along with some “friends of the MSL,” including Yali Li, an LLM graduate and “honorary MSL.” It felt very special to see everyone in person and to have the opportunity to reminisce and catch up.

EG: The time we spent with our students and alumni was the highlight of the trip. Whether it was in meetings, at dinners and lunches, or at our big alumni celebration events, being with the MSL community was the absolute best part of being in China. One of the most special aspects of this was the opportunity to see certain alums in person for the very first time – talking here about students from the online format and those who attended the MSL during the 2020-21 academic year when the program was exclusively online due to Covid. Even though we had never met these folks face-to-face, they still felt super familiar to us – definitely part of the MSL family.

AH: Our alumni anniversary meetups in both Shanghai and Beijing were very significant for me. It was an absolute joy to catch up with graduates from the classes I had worked with, and also wonderful to spend time with graduates from before my time working in the MSL, who filled me in on their experiences throughout the MSL’s 10-year history. Learning about how the MSL aided the navigation of so many successful career journeys was eye-opening for me – it’s one thing to speak abstractly about the potential of the MSL, but it’s quite another to see it in action. I come back from this trip with additional insight into the benefits of the MSL as I work to build future classes and a sense of pride about our alumni and the work I get to do for the program.

Visiting eleven (!) universities between the four of us didn’t allow for much down time, but we did have one amazing day of sightseeing. Though three of us had been to China and seen the obvious sights before, it was thrilling to do these things again and to see these breathtaking sights through Ashlee’s eyes.

AH: No visit anywhere near Beijing would be complete without a trip to the Forbidden City and the Great Wall. We did both in the same day, and I’m still proud that we pulled it off (thanks to Evan’s efficient planning). I’ve yet to find the right words to describe how I felt visiting the Great Wall. In witnessing its enormous expanse, doing my best to capture what I could in photos and videos, I often found myself unable to say anything – I just tried to absorb its grandness. It’s not just a landmark. It is a testament to ingenuity, craftsmanship, and perseverance of a people. I’ll truly never forget it.

I’ve been to different sections of the Wall, but never before to this particular section (Mutianyu), which was vast, beautiful, and well-preserved. We had a surprisingly wonderful meal (along with a splendid view of the Wall) at a touristy place at the base of the Wall – delicious potatoes in a flaming wok. We took the gondola up and spent a few hours walking between the various watchtowers along the Wall. After taking in the truly awesome scenery, we jumped into toboggans to zip back down the mountain – so incongruous and so much fun!! And what about that street lamb on spits dinner Evan arranged for us afterward?? Absolutely amazing. Of course, we loved (and needed) the foot massages we got at the end of our fun day.

Our sightseeing inspired us for a few more days of productive meetings. We made new contacts (for example, at the University of Chinese Academy of Sciences, where our wonderful alum Rui Li studied) and renewed old ones (for example, at the University of Science and Technology Beijing, where Kuanze Ma (MSL ’16) studied). At Renmin University of China Law School, we met with a very distinguished Northwestern Law alum, Professor He Jiahong, who also writes detective novels!

Another highlight of our trip was lunch on the last day with Juntong (Jasmine) Liu (MSL ’18), and her wonderful friend, Rachel Lin (Northwestern undergraduate class of 2013); Rachel is very active in the Beijing chapter of the Northwestern Alumni Association. Jasmine brought us to an amazing, over-the-top lunch, and followed that up with a tour of her family’s tea house in Beijing. It was wonderful to see how Jasmine is thriving as an entrepreneur in China, bringing her innovative ideas to the very traditional cultivation of rock tea, and preserving her family’s legacy in the process. As we relaxed over delicious teas, Jasmine talked about how the MSL had influenced her professionally, and I said that I wish we had caught that on video. When we returned to the US, Jasmine sent us this video.

As much as we accomplished on this trip, we obviously weren’t able to do everything we wanted to do. We would have loved to visit additional cities and spend time with the alums who couldn’t meet us in Shanghai and Beijing. Next time, we hope!

In closing the chapter of our China visit, here’s what our delegation had to say:

EG: We had tremendous support from our students and alumni before, during, and after the trip. Even while navigating a foreign country where none of us speak the language, we always had people leading us around, guiding us with a phone call, or WeChatting us to where we needed to be. This alumni input made us feel incredibly well prepared and supported. The dedication of our community was a huge reason for the success of our trip.

While the entire MSL community contributed to the success of this trip, several individuals played key roles. Kuanze Ma, Via Li, Yixuan Zhang, Zhaoyu Lu, Ying Chen, Hao Gao, Xingyi Pan (MSL ’23), Rui Li (MSL ’21), and Juntong Liu accompanied the group, hosted meals, arranged meetings, and traveled to reunite. We’re extremely grateful for their efforts, dedication, and friendship.

AH: I am incredibly grateful to Northwestern Law and the MSL Program for including me in this remarkable journey. I’m thankful to Evan Goldberg for orchestrating the most efficient trip itinerary I’ve ever seen and for making the entire trip happen, to Dan Rodriguez for offering engaging lectures on legal deference so that I finally understand the Chevron Doctrine, and to Leslie Oster for creating, implementing, and shepherding an exceedingly innovative program that I’m proud every day to represent.

DBR: Law and legal practice in China are evolving, just as it is in the United States. As those involved in the enterprise of advancing initiatives in the law/business/technology interface, we benefit from enduring, innovative collaborations. That Chinese students have been such a large part of our MSL student body and now alumni community is something we are enormously proud of; the program benefits greatly from what these students have contributed. A decade into the lifespan of our program, we look with admiration at what our Chinese graduates have accomplished with their degree, both in the PRC and in other countries. In addition to hoping (and expecting) a return trip to China to continue my own collaborative professional work, I am confident that the MSL program will continue to build strong ties with our colleagues and collaborators in this most intriguing part of the world.

So, there you have it – a recounting of our springtime trip to China. The trip was super significant to all four of us – it opened our minds, inspired us, gave us ideas, strengthened our connections with each other and with the MSL community in China – and it was a whole lot of fun. Thanks to all of our MSL alumni who work to stay connected across the miles. And very special thanks to Evan Goldberg, who masterminded the entire trip, planned an amazing agenda, and kept us laughing throughout.